[210702Z.OH 08/04/96] ADMINISTRATIVE MESSAGE ROUTINE R 210702Z OCT 93 ZYB PSN 826195P31 FM CDR JTF-FA HONOLULU HI//J2// TO SECDEF WASHINGTON DC//USDP:RSA// INFO WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASH DC JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC//JS// USCINCPAC LO WASHINGTON DC DIA WASHINGTON DC CJTFFA DET ONE BANGKOK TH USDAO BANGKOK TH//PW-MIA// SECSTATE WASHINGTON DC//CA/OCS/CCS/EAP/VLC// USCINCPAC HONOLULU HI//J2/J3/J30-M// UNCLAS//N03460// SECTION 01 OF 02 MSGID/GENADMIN/CDR JTF-FA/J2// SUBJ/INTERVIEW OF REQUESTED SOURCE, MG TRAN BACH DANG// REF/A/FAX/DET 2/30SEP93// AMPN/SUBJ/ENTRY NUMBER 41, LIST OF 83 INTERVIEW REQUESTS// THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE IS A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPTION Of AN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT FIELD REPORT// RMKS/1. BACKGROUND ON 15 SEPTEMBER 1993, A JOINT U.S/VIETNAM ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM INTERVIEW TEAM INTERVIEWED RETIRED MAJOR GENERAL (MG) TRAN BACH DANG, - A 73 YOA RESIDENT Of 14 PHAN KE BINH STREET, DISTRICT 1, HO CHI MINH CITY (HQMC). MG TRAN BACH DANG IS A FORMER COMMANDER OF THE SAIGON - GIA DINH SPECIAL ZONE AND PARTY SECRETARY OF THE B2 FRONT. HE IS CURRENTLY THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN Of THE HCMC SOCIAL SCIENCES COUNCIL. THE TEAM MET AT THE EXTERNAL RELATIONS OFFICE, 6 THAI VAN LUNG STREET, DISTRICT 1 HCMC, TO INTERVIEW MG TRAN BACH CANG, LISTED IN REFERENCE AS A POTENTIAL SOURCE Of INFORMATION CONCERNING U.S. PERSONNEL MISSING IN ACTION (MIA) IN VIETNAM. THE U. S. CONTINGENT CONSISTED OF MR. [XXXX][XXXX][XXXX], DET 2 CASUALTY RESOLUTION SPECIALIST, AND SGT [XXXX][XXXX][XXXX], JTF-FA J2(1) ... INFO FOR USCINCPAC HONOLULU H(13) 00499/17/1291 J 30-M(1) J3(1) 00-01-04(1) WWMCS(0) MDT(0) LRN061PCMT(0) JS2(1) J51(1) J1(1) JO32(3) J03(1) CDO(2) RECALLED/ RTD:000-OO0/COPIES:0013 826195/299 1 OF MATAO112 299/01:531 2107021 OCT 93 CSN:STMD00010 FOR LDMX 299/22:22Z CDR JTF-FA HON ANALYST/LINGUIST. THE VIETNAMESE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT CONTINGENT CONSISTED OF LTC LE KY, MINISTRY OF DEFENSE; AND MR. NGUYEN VAN THANG LOI, MINISTRY OF INTERIOR. OTHER PERSONNEL ATTENDING THIS INTERVIEW WERE MR. LE KIM LAM, HCMC MIA TEAM CHIEF; MR. HA, HCMC PUBLIC SECURITY SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE; AND PAVN LTC TRAN VAN TAN, MILITARY REGION SEVEN (MR7) HEADQUARTERS REPRESENTATIVE. 2. SUMMARY. THE SOURCE, MG TRAN BACH DANG, FORMERLY THE PARTY SECRETARY OF - THE SAIGON - GIA DINH SPECIAL ZONE, AND CONCURRENTLY THE COMMANDER OF THE SPECIAL ZONE, DESCRIBED HIS WARTIME ROLE AND THE SPECIAL ZONE'S POLICY CONCERNING PRISONERS Of WAR. MG DANG TALKED AT LENGTH ABOUT U.S. POLICY TOWARD VIETNAM AND HIS OPINIONS REGARDING POW/MIA SEARCH EFFORTS. HE CLAIMED NO KNOWLEDGE OF U.S. PERSONNEL LIVING FREELY OR AGAINST THEIR WILL IN VIETNAM SINCE 1973. 3. DETAILS. AFTER INTRODUCTORY STATEMENTS BY THE JOINT TEAM, THE SOURCE PROVIDED THE FOLLOWIING INFORMATION: A. THE SOURCE. MG TRAN BACH DANG (TRAANF BACHJ DAWNGF) SAID THAT DURING THE WAR HE WAS COMMANDER OF A MILITARY REGION. HE SAID THAT FOR THIS REASON WHEN A U.S. SERVICEMAN WAS CAPTURED, HE WAS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PW. MG DANG SAID THAT TODAY THE MILITARY REGION THAT HE CONTROLLED DURING THE WAR IS SOMETIMES INCORRECTLY REFERRED TO AS MILITARY REGION SEVEN (MR7). HE SAID THAT DURING THE WAR THERE WERE ACTUALLY FOUR MILITARY REGION: MR1, MR2, MR3. MR4. THE FOUR MILITARY REGIONS OR ZONES WERE LATER KNOWN AS MR7, MR8, MR9, AND SAIGON SPECIAL ZONE, RESPECTIVELY. MG DANG SAID THAT THE SAIGON SPECIAL ZONE WAS HIS LEADERSHIP'S ANSWER FOR DEALING WITH SPECIAL SITUATIONS IN AREAS SUCH AS SAIGON, CU CHI, UNDEVELOPED RURAL AREAS, AND DELTA REGIONS WHICH REQUIRED SPECIAL ADMINISTERING. B. MG DANG SAID THAT HE WAS THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE LIBERATION ARMY (SVNLA) B2 FRONT PARTY SECRETARY FOR THE SAIGON - GIA DINH SPECIAL ZONE DURING THE WAR, AND AS SUCH, WAS SEPARATE FROM THE MILITARY GENERAL STAFF. HE SAID THAT THE GENERAL STAFF FOR THE REGION HAD ITS OWN STAFF TO DEAL WITH MILITARY MATTERS. HE SAID THAT THE GENERAL STAFF WOULD BRING SOME CONCERNS TO HIS ATTENTION BUT, AS A RULE, THE GENERAL STAFF TOOK CARE OF THEIR OWN AFFAIRS. AS THE PARTY SECRETARY, MG DANG SAID HE DID NOT PERSONALLY PARTICIPATE IN COMBAT DURING THE WAR, BUT FOUGHT BATTLES OF A POLITICAL NATURE. MG DANG SAID THAT HE CURRENTLY SERVES AS MUNICIPAL PARTY SECRETARY FOR HCMC. C. MG DANG SAID THAT THE SPECIAL ZONE, ALONE, COULD NOT PROVIDE FOR PW'S BECAUSE IT HAD NO REAR AREA. ACCORDINGLY, THE ZONE RELIED UPON THE CU CHI AREA TO PROVIDE ALL PROVISIONS. IN ORDER TO EFFECT THIS, THE SPECIAL ZONE HAD ITS OWN HEADQUARTERS AND COMMAND POST. HE SAID THAT BY 1975, NEARLY EVERY PART OF THE CU CHI AREA HAD BEEN HIT BY AIR STRIKES, CONTRIBUTING GREATLY TO THE SUPPLY AND LOGISTICS PROBLEMS FACED BY THE SPECIAL ZONE. D. MG DANG SAID SPECIAL ZONE UNITS DID NOT CAPTURE A LARGE NUMBER OF PW'S OVER THE YEARS, BUT AS HE RECALLED, BOTH KOREANS AND AMERICANS WERE CAPTURED. ACCORDING TO POLICY, MG DANG SAID, THE PW'S 826195/299 2 OF MATA0112 299/01:537 210702Z OCT 93 CSN:STMD00010 FOR LDMX CDR JTF-FA HON WERE TAKEN TO HOLDING CAMPS OUTSIDE THE ZONE HE CONTINUED TO SAY THAT HE AND HIS STAFF DID NOT PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO THE FATES OF THE PW'S ONCE THEY WERE OUTSIDE THE ZONE. HIS CONCERNS WERE IMPLEMENTING THE POLICY FOR TREATMENT OF PW'S WHILE BEING EVACUATED FROM THE ZONE, SUCH AS ENSURING THAT THEY RECEIVED ADEQUATE FOOD AND SHELTER. MG DANG SAID THAT OCCASIONALLY THE SVNLF EXCHANGED PRISONERS WITH THE U.S AND THE LAST OF THE U.S. PW'S WERE REPATRIATED AFTER THE SIGNING OF THE PARIS PEACE ACCORDS IN 1973. E. MG DANG POINTED OUT THE IMPACT OF THE U.S RAID ON THE SON TAY PRISON. HE SAID THAT THE SON TAY RAID SERVED AS A SYMBOL TO THœ VIETNAMESE LEADERSHIP ABOUT THEIR PW SYSTEM. THE RAID DEMONSTRATED THE CAPABILITY Of THE U.S. TO GO INTO VIETNAMESE TERRITORY, BUT ALSO ALLOWED THE VIETNAMESE TO REDEFINE THEIR METHODS OF ENSURING THAT PW'S WERE HELD IN LOCATIONS THAT COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE LOCATED BY ANY MEANS. F. AFTER 1973, MG DANG SAID THAT THERE WAS NO REASON TO KEEP AMERICAN PW'S. HE SAID THAT HE WAS AWARE OF THE U.S MIA ISSUE, BUT THERE WERE MANY, MANY REASONS FOR THE INDIVIDUALS TO STILL BE MISSING. HE WEIGHED THIS WITH THE FACT THAT THE VIETNAMESE STILL HAVE MORE THAN 300,000 MIA'S FROM THEIR OWN COUNTRY WHICH HAVE NOT BEEN FOUND. MG DANG SAID THAT BASED ON HIS OWN EXPERIENCE LOSSES RESULTING FROM COMPANY-SIZE OR SMALLER COMBAT ACTIONS WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO ACCOUNT FOR. IN AN ASIDE, MG DANG MENTIONED THAT HE HAD RECENTLY MET WITH FORMER U S. SENATOR EDMUND MUSKIE AND THAT THE TWO OF THEM HAD DISCUSSED THIS SAME SUBJECT. HE BRIEFLY DISMISSED OTHER SITUATIONS THAT RESULTED IN MIA'S, WHICH HE FEELS WILL BE DIFFICULT TO RESOLVE, SUCH AS U S. AIRCRAFT LOSSES OVER LAOS OR CAMBODIA. G. IN LIGHT OF THE U.S. POSITION AS A WORLD SUPER POWER, MG DANG SAID IT WOULD HAVE BEEN FOOLISH FOR VIETNAM TO DETAIN PRISONERS AFTER THE END OF THE WAR, KNOWING THE DAY WOULD ARRIVE WHEN VIETNAM AND THE U.S MUST COME TO TERMS WITH EACH OTHER. HE SAID THE LEADERS OF HIS COUNTRY WERE INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO LOOK TO THE FUTURE AND KNOW THEY WOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS TOWARD U.S. PW'S MG DANG SAID THE VIETNAMESE GOVERNMENT HAD A POLICY PROHIBITING THE MISTREATMENT OF PW'S AND WOULD CERTAINLY NOT HAVE DETAINED PRISONERS AFTER 1973. AFTER THE RETURN OF PEACE TO THE COUNTRY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE TO CONTINUE HIDING PW'S FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD, HE SAID, AND THERE WAS NOTHING TO JUSTIFY THE COST. HE SAID THAT SOME // BT 826195/299 3 OF 3 MATA0112 299/01:53Z 2107022 OCT 93 CSN:STMD00010 FOR LDMX CDR JTF-FA HON ADMINISTRATIVE MESSAGE ROUTINE UNCLAS //N03460// FINAL SECTION OF 02 MSGID/GENADNIN/CDR JTF-FA/J2// SUBJ/INTERVIEW OF REQUESTED SOURCE, MG TRAN BACH DANG// RMKS/ U.S. SERVICEMEN SIMPLY LEFT VIETNAM, OTHERS DESERTED AND PERHAPS SOME WENT TO THAILAND, SINGAPORE, OR OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT THERE WERE CERTAINLY NONE LEFT IN VIETNAM. HE ALSO SAID THAT THERE WAS NO WAY FOR THE VIETNAMESE TO ACCOUNT FOR THESE INDIVIDUALS, BUT THERE WERE NO "STAY BEHINDS" IN VIETNAM. H. MG DANG SAID THAT THœ RECOVERY Of REMAINS WAS A SEPARATE MATTER. HE SAID THAT THE SRV HAD RECOVERED ALL REMAINS OF U.S. PERSONNEL WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN FOUND AND HAD ALREADY RETURNED THEM TO THE U.S. HE SAID THAT HE WAS AWARE THAT THERE WERE REMAINS IN HAWAII WHICH COULD NOT BE POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED AND SPECULATED THAT THE CHANCES FOR IDENTIFICATION OF THESE CASES IS POSSIBLY TEN PERCENT. HE SAID THOSE WHO ARE LEFT UNACCOUNTED FOR WILL REMAIN UNACCOUNTED FOR BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING LEFT TO RECOVER. ON THIS POINT, MG DANG WAS VERY ADAMANT. HE OFFERED TO SIGN A STATEMENT STATING THAT "EVEN IF RELATIONS ARE RE-ESTABLISHED BETWEEN THE U.S. AND VIETNAM, THERE IS NO WAY TO ACCOUNT FOR THE REMAINS OF MIA'S." I. MG DANG THEN DISCUSSED AN INCIDENT INVOLVING A FRENCH-VIETNAMESE MAN WHO HAD BEEN PROSECUTED TWICE IN HO CHI MINH CITY COURTS FOR REMAINS DEALING WITHOUT PROVIDING DETAILS. HE SAID THAT THE ISSUE OF RECOVERING REMAINS HAS ALREADY CAUSED MANY PROBLEMS. J. MG DANG CLAIMED NO KNOWLEDGE Of WAR-TIME DOCUMENTS OR RECORDS. HE SAID THAT HE WAS AWARE OF TWO RUSSIAN DOCUMENTS WHICH HAVE CAUSED PROBLEMS. HE SAID THAT PERHAPS IT CAN BE DETERMINED THAT THEY ARE GENUINE RUSSIAN DOCUMENTS, BUT THE INFORMATION IS FALSE. CONCERNING THE CAPTURE OF PW'S, MG DANG SAID THAT IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THE U.S. SIDE CAN CONTINUE TO RECEIVE INFORMATION ON INDIVIDUAL CASES, BUT IF THE INFORMATION IS ONLY HEARSAY AND DOES NOT COME FROM DIRECT PARTICIPANTS, IT TOO IS OF NO VALUE. K. MG DANG SAID THAT HE FEELS THAT THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR A J2(1)...INFO FOR USCINCPAC HONOLULU H(13) 00499/17/1291 J30-M(1) J3(1) 0 -01-04(1) WWMCS(0) MDT(0) LRN061PCMT(O) J52(1) J51(1) J1(1) J032(3) J03(1) CDO(2) RECALLED/ RTD:000-000/COPIES:0013 826197/299 1 OF MATA0113 299/01:53Z 210702Z OCT 93 CSN:STMD00010 FOR LDMX 299/22:22Z CDR JTF-FA HON LARGE COUNTRY LIKE THE U.S. WHICH REFUSES TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH, ADDING THAT THIS IS A HUMANITARIAN ISSUE FOR BOTH SIDES. HE SAID THE RELATIONS BETWEEN THE SRV AND CHINA WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE FOR THE U.S. TO CONSIDER. AFTER THEIR BORDER WAR, THE TWO NATIONS NOW HAVE RELATIONS AND THERE IS NO PROBLEM IN THE MIA ARENA. MG DANG SAID THAT HE FELT THE NEW BATTLEFIELD TODAY FOR THE SRV WAS TO WIN THE HEARTS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. HE SAID THERE IS NO TRUTH TO ALLEGATIONS OF PW 'S BEING HELD IN VIETNAM TODAY AND THAT ALL NATIONS SHOULD REALIZE THE RIGHTS OF OTHER NATIONS TO DEVELOP, BUT THE U.S. STILL HOLDS VIETNAM AS A POLITICAL HOSTAGE WITH THE MIA ISSUE. L. AT THIS POINT, MG DANG SAID THAT HE APPRECIATED THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK OPENLY AND CANDIDLY. HE SAID THAT THERE COULD HAVE BEEN NO REASON TO JUSTIFY HOLDING BACK U.S. PW'S BECAUSE DOING SO WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN VERY INTELLIGENT, CONSIDERING THE STRENGTH AND POWER OF THE U.S. MG DANG SAID HE REALIZED THAT NOTHING HE COULD SAY WOULD ASSIST THE U.S. SIDE IN RESOLVING POW/MIA CASES AND THAT HE HAD NOTHING SPECIFIC TO PROVIDE TO THE JOINT TEAM. FOR EXAMPLE, HE SAID, HE COULD NOT PROVIDE THE TEAM WITH INFORMATION ON SPECIFIC CAMPS OR LOCATIONS. HE ADDED THAT HE FELT IT WAS TIME TO PUT AN END TO THE ISSUE SO THAT BOTH COUNTRIES COULD MOVE AHEAD IN THEIR RELATIONS. M. MG DANG OFFERED PERSONAL CONJECTURE ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF HOLDING BACK EVEN ONE U.S. PW. HE ASKED, IF AN AMERICAN PW HAD BEEN HELD BACK AFTER 1973, HOW COULD THE COST OF FEEDING, CLOTHING, AND SHELTERING THE PRISONER BE JUSTIFIED FOR 20 YEARS? HE ALSO ASKED FOR CONSIDERATION OF THE MATTER FROM THE ASPECT OF RANK; IF THE INDIVIDUAL PW WAS A MAJOR, A LIEUTENANT, OR A PRIVATE, WHAT COULD THE LEADERSHIP POSSIBLY EXPECT TO GAIN THAT WOULD JUSTIFY SUCH A COST? MG DANG SAID, IN HIS OPINION, THE ANSWER TO HIS QUESTIONS ARE THAT THE LEADERSHIP COULD NOT HAVE JUSTIFIED SUCH AN EXPENSE AND THAT THE LEADERSHIP WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN. IN ORDER TO END THIS LINE OF REASONING, MG DANG SAID THAT IF THE VIETNAMESE ATTITUDE ON THIS SUBJECT WAS REALLY UNDERSTOOD, IT WOULD BE OBVIOUS THAT THE LEADERSHIP COULD NOT HAVE POSSIBLY ALLOWED THE RETENTION OF PW'S. N. WITH NO FURTHER QUESTIONS FOR MG TRAN BACH DANG, THE JOINT TEAM AGREED TO CONCLUDE THE INTERVIEW. 4. CORRELATIONS TO EXISTING POW/MIA CASES. NONE. 5. POTENTIAL LEADS: NONE. 6. MATERIAL EVIDENCE: NONE. THE SOURCE BROUGHT NO RECORDS, NOTEBOOKS, DIARIES OR ANY MATERIAL EVIDENCE ASSOCIATED WITH UNACCOUNTED FOR U.S. PERSONNEL. 7. COMMENT. A. THE SOURCE ACKNOWLEDGED HE HAD NO INFORMATION OF IMMEDIATE. USEFULNESS FOR THE JOINT TEAM AND USED THE INTERVIEW AS A FORUM TO, PONTIFICATE ABOUT HIS PERSONAL VIEWS Of THE ISSUE. B. REQUEST THE VNOSMP MAKE MG TRAN BACH DANG AVAILABLE FOR REINTERVIEW IF NECESSARY.// BT 826197/299 2 OF 2 MATA0113 299/01:53Z 210702Z OCT 93 CSN:STMD00010 FOR LDMX CDR JTF-FA HON