SCHUMANN, JOHN ROBERT
Name: John Robert Schumann Rank/Branch: O4/US Army Unit: Advisor, Headquarters, MACV Date of Birth: 02 February 1932 (Minneapolis MN) Home City of Record: Cokato MN Date of Loss: 16 June 1965 Country of Loss: South Vietnam Loss Coordinates: 102231N 1060107E (XS115470) Status (in 1973): Killed in Captivity Category: 1 Aircraft/Vehicle/Ground: Ground
Other Personnel in Incident: (none missing)
Source: Compiled by Homecoming II Project from one or more of the following: raw data from U.S. Government agency sources, correspondence with POW/MIA families, published sources, interviews. Updated by the P.O.W. NETWORK with numerous "clip and paste" notes on John Robert from numerous sources.
REMARKS: 66070 - RRS SAY DIED - J
SYNOPSIS: Major John R. Schumann was an advisor from Headquarters, MACV, and his job was assisting a village chief in Dinh Tuong Province, South Vietnam. On June 16, 1965, he was in an automobile with the village chief while the unit they were overseeing was operating about 5 miles northeast of the city of Vinh Long along the border of Dinh Tuong and Vinh Long Provinces.
The unit was ambushed and Schumann and others were captured. The village chief escaped capture. Schumann was held with several Americans during the period he was a prisoner of war, and all who were subsequently released report that he died in captivity.
In 1973, Henry Kissinger gave the Vietnamese a list of "discrepancy cases" on whom the Vietnamese should have information. John R. Schumann's name did not appear on that list.
Since the war ended, the Vietnamese have made no effort to return the body of Robert Schumann, even though it should be readily available to them. Although dead, Schumann remains a prisoner of war.
Others who are missing do not have such clear-cut cases. Some were known captives; some were photographed as they were led by their guards. Some were in radio contact with search teams, while others simply disappeared.
Well over 1000 first-hand, eye-witness reports of American prisoners still alive in Southeast Asia have been received by 1990. Most of them are still classified. If, as the U.S. seems to believe, the men are all dead, why the secrecy after so many years? If the men are alive, why are they not home?
[091842Z.OH 04/28/96]
RCV11494 05:23 08/13/93
VZCZCBTO550 RR RUEHBT DE RUHQSGG #5367 2211842 ZNR UUUUU R 091842Z AUG 93 ZYB FM CDR JTF-FA HONOLULU HI//J2// TO RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC//USDP:RSA/DPMO-RA/DPMO-RD// INFO RHEHNSC/WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASH DC RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHINGTON DC//CA/OCS/CCS/EAP/VLC// RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC//OCJCS/J5/PW-NIA/J3-JOD// RUHQHQB/USCINCPAC HONOLULU HI//J3/J30-M// RUEKJCS/USCINCPAC LO WASHINGTON DC RUEAIIA/CIA WASHINGTON DC//DEA/SEA/IB/DDO/EA/ICOG// RUHVAAA/CDRUSACILHI HICKAM AFB HI//TAPC-PED-H// RUEHBT/USDAO BANGKOK TH//PW-MIA// RUEHBT/CJTFFA DET ONE BANGKOK TH BT UNCLAS //N03460// SECTION 01 OF 03 AMPN/SUBJ/INTERVIEW OF REQUESTED SOURCE, MR. NGUYEN HUNG TRI// REF/A/FAX/DET 2/30DEC92// AMPN SUBJ: (OHR-001-92) ORAL HISTORY REPORT--MR. NGUYEN HUNG TRI REGARDING CASE 1274 (PRIDEMORE) AND HQ SVNLA'S U.S. POW CAMP// THIS IS A RETRANSMITTAL OF A PREVIOUSLY TRANSMITTED MESSAGE, SAME
PAGE 02 RUHQSGG5367 UNCLAS
SUBJ//
RMKS/I. SUMMARY: ON 26 DECEMBER 1992, DET 2 RESEARCHER/HISTORIAN (R.J. DESTATTE) AND DET 2 ANALYST (SSGT W.H. NEWELL), ACCOMPANIED BY THREE MEMBERS OF THE VIETNAMESE OFFICE FOR SEARCHING FOR MISSING PERSONS (VNOSMP), INTERVIEWED MR. NGUYEN HUNG TRI AT HIS OFFICE IN HANOI, VIETNAM. EARLIER INVESTIGATIONS OF CASE 1274 IDENTIFIED HR. TRI AS A FORMER CADRE OF THE HEADQUARTERS SOUTH VIETNAM LIBERATION ARMY'S (HQ SVNLA) U.S. POW CAMP DURING THE WAR. THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE OF THE INTERVIEW WAS TO OBTAIN INFORMATION THAT MIGHT HELP RESOLVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE FATE OF U.S. ARMY STAFF SERGEANT (SSG) DALLAS PRIDEMORE, WHO WAS CAPTURED ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF SAIGON, ON 8 SEPTEMBER 1968. MR. TRI WAS VERY OPEN AND CANDID AND DEMONSTRATED A CLEAR AND ACCURATE RECALL OF WAR TIME EVENTS. HE WAS CERTAIN ALL AMERICANS CAPTURED IN HQ SVNLA'S AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY (EXCLUDING MILITARY REGION NINE) WERE MOVED AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE TO HQ SVNLA'S U.S. POW CAMP. HE RECALLED THAT THIS CAMP, WHILE MOBILE, REMAINED IN THE AREA ALONG BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER BETWEEN NORTHERN TAY NINH PROVINCE, SOUTHERN VIETNAM, AND CAMBODIA. HE WAS CERTAIN HQ SVNLA NEVER HAD A POW CAMP IN SVAY RIENG PROVINCE, CAMBODIA. HE WAS CERTAIN NO PRISONER NAMED DALLAS PRIDEMORE EVER-REACHED HQ SVNLA'S
PAGE 03 RUHQSGG5367 UNCLAS
U.S. POW CAMP. IN HIS JUDGMENT, SSG PRIDEMORE MUST HAVE DIED BEFORE HE COULD BE MOVED TO THE HQ SVNLA'S U.S. POW CAMP. HE DESCRIBED IN GENERAL TERMS PROCEDURES FOR EVACUATING U.S. POWS TO HQ SVNLA. HE IDENTIFIED TWO PERSONS WHO NIGHT HE ABLE TO PROVIDE INFORMATION REGARDING THIS CASE. HE RECALLED THE NAMES OF SEVERAL AMERICANS WHO WERE IN THE HQ SVNLA U.S. POW CAMP AND WHO HE HAD INTERVIEWED, SEEN, OR HEARD ABOUT. HE SUPPLIED LIMITED INFORMATION CONCERNING UNRESOLVED CASES 0043, 0050, 0099, 1410, 1610, AND 9960.
2. SOURCE DATA:
NAME: NGUYEN HUNG TRI ((NGUYEENX HUNGF TRIS)).
AGE: 50 YEARS ((DOI: DEC 1992))
WAR TIME POSITION: OCT '65-OCT '66, 2ND LIEUTENANT, PEOPLES ARMY OF VIETNAM (PAVN, INTERPRETER, U.S. POW CAMP UNIT TB-20. POLITICAL DEPARTMENT, HQ SVNLA, AKA MIEN. CURRENT POSITION, ADDRESS, PHONE, FAX: DIRECTOR, EXPORT DEPARTMENT, VIETNAM NATIONAL PETROLEUM IMPORT-EXPORT CORPORATION, NO. 1 KHAM THIEN STREET, HANOI, VIETNAM; PHONE: 84-4-268060, 84-4-
PAGE 04 RUHQSGG5367 UNCLAS 252603; FAX: 84-4-59203.
3. DETAILS:
A. HR. TRI IS A NATIVE OF NORTHERN VIETNAM. AS A 2ND LIEUTENANT IN THE PEOPLES ARMY OF VIETNAM (PAVN), HE DEPARTED HANOI IN MARCH 1965 AND ARRIVED AT HQ SVNLA IN JUNE OR JULY 1965. HE WAS THE DEPUTY COMMANDER OF HQ SVNLA'S U.S. POW CAMP FROM OCTOBER 1965 THROUGH OCTOBER 2966. HR. TRI RECALLED THAT WHEN HE JOINED THE CAMP, IT WAS KNOWN AS UNIT TB-20. HE SAID HE BELIEVED IT WAS REDESIGNATED TB-21 UNIT AT SOME LATER DATE. FROM OCTOBER 1966 THROUGH THE END OF HE WAR HR. TRI WROTE ARTICLES FOR LIBERATION NEWS RADIO AND PRINT MEDIA. IN THAT CAPACITY HE VISITED THE U.S. POW CAMP OCCASIONALLY TO INTERVIEW U.S. POWS.
B. HR. TRI SAID HE WAS THE INTERPRETER FOR THE HO SVNLA DELEGATION DURING TWO POW EXCHANGES. THE FIRST WAS ON 28 DECEMBER 1965; CASE 0024 (G. SMITH AND MCCLURE). THE SECOND WAS ON 1 JANUARY 1969; CASE 1173 (D.G. SMITH), CASE 1263 (T.N. JONES), AND CASE 1278 (J.W. BRIGHAM). HR. TRI GAVE THE DET 2 RESEARCHER/HISTORIAN A COPY OF A BLACK AND WHITE PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTING THE THREE U.S. POWS RELEASED ON 1 JANUARY 1969, FLANKED BY THE U.S. DELEGATE AND HIS INTERPRETER ON ONE SIDE AND THE HQ
PAGE 05 RUHQSGG5367 UNCLAS
SVNLA DELEGATE WITH HR. TRI ON THE OTHER SIDE. HR. TRI EASILY RECALLED ACCURATE DETAILS ABOUT PAVN MAJOR NGUYEN VAN TUOI ((NGUYEENX VAWN TUOOI)), AKA BAY TUOI ((BAYR TUOOI)), A HQ SVNLA STAFF OFFICER WHO ALSO WAS INVOLVED IN THE 1 JANUARY 1969 EXCHANGE. (( FIELD COMMENT: JCRC SPECIALISTS AND THE DET 2 RESEARCHER/HISTORIAN INTERVIEWED TUOI IN THE EARLY 1980'S IN INDONESIA AND BELGIUM.))
C. HR. TRI SAID HE WAS ALSO PRESENT AT LOC NINH WHEN THE U.S. POWS WHO HAD BEEN HELD IN THE HQ SVNLA CAMP WERE RELEASED IN THE FINAL POW EXCHANGE IN EARLY 1973 ((OPERATIONS HOMECOMING)). (( FIELD COMMENT: DET 2 RESEARCHER/HISTORIAN PROMISED TO GIVE HR. TRI SOME BLACK AND WHITE PHOTOS A U.S. ARMY PHOTOGRAPHER TOOK OF THE HQ SVNLA DELEGATION AT THE LOC NINH EXCHANGE.))
D. CASE 1274 (PRIDEMORE):
(1) HR. TRI SAID HE NEVER MET SSG PRIDEMORE. HE HAD NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT SSG PRIDEMORE OR HIS FATE.
(2) DET 2 RESEARCHER/HISTORIAN SUNMARIZED THE LOCATION, DATE, AND CIRCUMSTANCES OF SSG PRIDEMORE'S CAPTURE, AND INVITED MR. TRI TO COMMENT ON SPECIFIC POINTS OF THE STORY.
(3) MR. TRI NOTED THU DUC DISTRICT WAS PART OF COMMUNIST
PAGE 06 RUHQSGG5367 UNCLAS ù
SUB-REGION IV IN HQ SVNLA'S AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY. HE SAID ALL POWS CAPTURED IN SUB-REGION IV WERE EVACUATED AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE TO THE HQ SVNLA U.S. POW CAMP.
(4) MR. TRI RECALLED THAT HQ SVNLA'S U.S. POW CAMP, WHILE MOBILE, REMAINED IN THE AREA ALONG BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER BETWEEN NORTHERN TAY NINH PROVINCE, SOUTHERN VIETNAM, AND CAMBODIA. MR. TRI SAID HE WAS CERTAIN THAT HQ SVNLA NEVER KEPT ANY FOREIGN POWS IN SVAY RIENG PROVINCE.
(5) CITING SECURITY, ECONOMIC, AND SAFETY FACTORS, MR. TRI SAID HE WAS CERTAIN NO ECHELON SUBORDINATE TO HQ SVNLA COULD HAVE OR WOULD HAVE TRIED TO HOLD A U.S. POW FOR A LONG PERIOD. (( FIELD COMMENT: IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS INTERVIEW, HQ SVNLA ARMY WAS UNDERSTOOD TO INCLUDE COMMUNIST MILITARY REGION 6, 7, 8, AND 10, AND THE SAIGON, CHOLON, GIA DINH SPECIAL ZONE; AND TO EXCLUDE MILITARY REGION 9, WHICH WAS THE REGION SOUTH OF THE MEKING RIVER.))
(6) HR. TRI SAID HE IS CERTAIN ANY AMERICAN CAPTURED IN HQ SVNLA'S AREA WHO DID NOT ENTER THE HQ SVNLA U.S. POW CAMP ADMINISTERED BY UNIT TB-20/TB-21 DIED BEFORE REACHING THE CAMP.
(7) LTC PHAM TEO (MND MIA SPECIALIST ASSIGNED TO THE
BT #5367
RCV11496 05:31 08/13/93 VZCZCBTO552 RR RUEHBT DE RUHQSGG #5368 2211842 ZNR UUUUU R 091842Z AUG 93 ZYB FM CDR JTF-FA HONOLULU HI//J2// 70 RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC//USDP:RSA/DPMO-RA/DPMO-RD// INFO RHEHNSC/WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASH DC RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHINGTON DC//CA/OCS/CCS/EAP/VLC// RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC//OCJCS/J5/PW-MIA/J3-JOD// RUHQHQB/USCINCPAC HONOLULU HI//J3/J30-M// RUEKJCS/USCINCPAC LO WASHINGTON DC RUEAIIA/CIA WASHINGTON DC//DEA/SEA/IB/DDO/EA/ICOG// RUHVAAA/CDRUSACILHI HICKAM AFB HI//TAPC-PED-H// RUEHBT/USDAO BANGKOK TH//PW-MIA// RUEHBT/CJTFFA DET ONE BANGKOK TH BT UNCLAS //N03460// SECTION 02 OF 03
AMPN/SUBJ/INTERVIEW OF REQUESTED SOURCE, MR. NGUYEN HUNG TRI// VNOSMP) NOTED THE THU DUC DISTRICT SPECIAL ACTION UNIT ((BIEETJ DDOONGJ DDOOIJ)) CAPTURED SSG PRIDEMORE. IN RESPONSE, MR. TRI EXPLAINED SEVERAL FACTORS RECOMMENDED THAT ANY SEARCH FOR DOCUMENTS AND WITNESSES SHOULD BEGIN WITH THE CAPTURING UNIT.
PAGE 02 RUHQSGG5368 UNCLAS FIRST, GUERRILLA FORCES, SUCH AS A DISTRICT SPECIAL ACTION UNIT, ARE LEAST LIKELY TO HAVE THE RESOURCES, TRAINING, AND INCLINATION TO MOVE A POW TO THE NEXT HIGHER ECHELON; THEREFORE, IT IS LIKELY A POW CAPTURED BY SUCH A UNIT WOULD BE KILLEDOR DIE BEFORE HE REACHED THE NEXT HIGHER ECHELON--IN THIS INSTANCE PROVINCE LEVEL. MR. TRI STATED THAT PAVN MAIN FORCE UNITS, E.G., THE PAVN 5TH, 7TH, AND 9TH DIVISIONS, WERE THE MOST LIKELY UNITS TO HAVE THE RESOURCES, TRAINING, AND DISCIPLINE TO IMPLEMENT POLICY TO MOVE U.S. POWS TO HQ SVNLA. LTC PHAM TEO INFORMED MR. TRI THAT FOUR SEPARATE JOINT INVESTIGATIONS HAVE FAILED TO LOCATE CREDIBLE EYE WITNESSES FROM THE CAPTURING UNIT.
(8) HR. TRI SAID HQ SVNLA RECEIVED DAILY TELEPHONE REPORTS THAT INCLUDED INFORMATION ABOUT POWS. HOWEVER, HE SAID IT WAS NOT UNCOMMON, AFTER WAITING A FEW WEEKS, TO INQUIRE ABOUT THE STATUS OF THE POW AND LEARN HE HAD DIED WHILE ENROUTE TO HQ SVNLA HE SAID THAT FREQUENTLY REPORTS NOTED A SUBORDINATE UNIT HAD BURIED THE BODY OF AN AMERICAN; BUT DID NOT PROVIDE ANY INFORMATION ABOUT SPECIFIC LOCATION. HE SAID TYPICALLY COMMUNIST FORCES WOULD LEAVE A BODY WHERE IT WAS FOUND OR, IF THEY BURIED THE BODY, THEY DID NOT MARK THE GRAVE.
PAGE 03 RUHQSGG5368 UNCLAS
(9) MR. TRI SAID THE NORMAL REPORTING CHANNEL FOR THE THU DUC DISTRICT UNIT WOULD BE THROUGH THE PROVINCE AND SUBREGION COMMANDS TO THE ENEMY PROSELYTING DEPARTMENT FOR HQ SVNLA. MR. TRI SAID REPORTS ON DECEASED AMERICANS WOULD NOT BE SENT TO THE HQ SVNLA U.S. POW CAMP. HE SAID REPORTS ABOUT DECEASED AMERICANS WOULD HAVE BEEN SENT TO THœ HQ SVNLA'S ENEMY PROSELYTING DEPARTMENT.
(10) NORMALLY, MR. TRI BELIEVED, THE THU DUC DISTRICT SPECIAL ACTION UNIT SHOULD HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR MOVING THE PRISONERS TO THE PROVINCE COMMAND. THE PROVINCE COMMAND WOULD NAVE SOUGHT INSTRUCTIONS FROM SUB-REGION IV. DEPENDING ON CIRCUMSTANCES, SUB-REGION IV MIGHT HAVE DIRECTED THE PROVINCE TO MOVE THE PRISONER TO SUB-REGION OR TO HOLD THœ PRISONER PENDING ARRIVAL OF AN ESCORT TEAM FROM SUB-REGION. SUB-REGION IN TURN WOULD HAVE REQUESTED INSTRUCTIONS FROM HQ SVNLA. NORMALLY, FOR SECURITY REASONS, HQ SVNLA WOULD SEND A TEAM TO RECEIVE THE POW SOMEWHERE ENROUTE BETWEEN PROVINCE AND SUB-REGION.
(11) MR. TRI SAID THAT OUTSIDE THE LOCAL GUERRILLA UNIT, THE ORGANIZATION MOST LIKELY TO HAVE PRESERVED USEFUL DOCUMENTARY INFORMATION ABOUT SSG PRIDEMORE SHOULD BE THE HQ SNLVA ENEMY
PAGE 04 RUHQSGG5368 UNCLAS
PROSELYTING DEPARTMENT.
E. POTENTIAL WITNESSES;
(1) DANG THUAN HOA ((DDANGJ THUUANJ HOAF)). INTERPRETER FOR HQ SVNLA U.S. POW CAMP WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE POW EXCHANGE ON 1 JANUARY 1969. HOA CURRENTLY WORKS IN THE HO CHI MINH COMMERCIAL AFFAIRS OFFICE ((SOWR THUOWNG NGHIEEPHJ)). (( FIELD COMMENT: VNOSMP MEMBERS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE INTERVIEW SAID IT SHOULD BE EASY TO LOCATE AND INTERVIEW MR. HOA.))
(2) LUU QUANG TUYEN ((LUWU QUANG TUYEENS)). THE CHIEF or THE ENEMY PROSELYTING DEPARTMENT, HQ SVNLA,- FROM ABOUT 1969 THROUGH 2975. AFTER THE WAR HE BECAME DEPUTY CHIEF OF LONG AN PROVINCE. CURRENTLY RETIRED, HE NOW LIVES IN SAIGON. ((FIELD COMMENT: VNOSMP MEMBERS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE INTERVIEW SAID IT SHOULD BE EASY TO LOCATE AND INTERVIEW MR. TUYEN.))
(3) NGO OAT TAI ((NGOO DDAATJ TAIF)): AKA 10 TRAI ((TRAIX)) AND 10 TAI ((TAIF)). CHIEF or THE ENEMY PROSELYTING DEPARTMENT, HQ SVNLA FROM ABOUT 1967 TO 1969. HE FELL VICTIM TO POOR HEALTH AND RETURNED TO NORTH VIETNAM IN ABOUT 1969. CURRENTLY RETIRED, HE LIVES ON ONG ICH KHIEM STREET (( PHOOS OONG ICHS KHIEM)), HANOI, VIETNAM. HIS PREDECESSOR, LE HOA ((LEE
PAGE 05 RUHQSGG5368 UNCLAS
HOAF)) DIED OF OLD AGE IN ABOUT 1977 OR 1978. (( FIELD COMMENT: VNOSMP MEMBERS WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE INTERVIEW SAID IT SHOULD BE EASY TO LOCATE AND INTERVIEW MR. TAI.))
(4) LE QUANG HUY ((LEE QUANG HUY)); AKA 8 HUY. COMMANDER OF THE HQ SVNLA U.S. POW CAMP FROM 1967 THROUGH 1975. ((FIELD COMMENT: THREE DIFFERENT U.S. SPECIALISTS, INCLUDING DET 2 RESEARCHER/HISTORIAN, HAVE INTERVIEWED MR. HUY. MR. HUY HAS PREVIOUSLY SHOWN HIMSELF TO BE A VERY VAIN AND UNCOOPERATIVE WITNESS. HIS ONE AND ONLY PREDECESSOR (1964-1967) WAS LE HUE ((LEE HUEEJ)), WHO IS DECEASED. ((FIELD COMMENT: AS COMMANDER OF THE U.S. POW CAMP, LE QUANG HUY COULD BE EXPECTED TO HAVE LITTLE OR NO DIRECT KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ANY AMERICANS OTHER THAN THOSE WHO WERE UNDER HIS DIRECT SUPERVISION.))
F. ENEMY PROSELYTING AND MILITARY PROSELYTING. MR. TRI DEFINED ENEMY PROSELYTING ((DDICHJ VAANJ)) AS A FUNCTION PERFORMED BY THE MILITARY AND DIRECTED AT ADVERSARY MILITARY FORCES. HE DESCRIBED MILITARY PROSELYTING (( BINH VAANJ)) AS A FUNCTION CARRIED OUT BY THE COMMUNIST PARTY--IN THIS INSTANCE THE CENTRAL OFFICE FOR SOUTH VIETNAM (( COSVN)) AND IS DIRECTED AT MOBILIZING ALL ELEMENTS OF THE SOCIETY. STATED IN OTHER WORDS,
PAGE 06 RUHQSGG5368 UNCLAS
ACCORDING TO MESERS TRI AND PHAM TEO, ENEMY PROSELYTING IS A SUBSET OF MILITARY PROSELYTING.
G. THE 2ND OFFICE (( PHONGF 2)), AKA RECONNAISSANCE OFFICE ((PHONG TRINH SAT)), AKA MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ((QUAAN BAOS)) WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR INTERROGATING POWS FOR TACTICAL INFORMATION. THE ENEMY PROSELYTING ELEMENT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR INTERROGATING POWS FOR PROPAGANDA AND PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE PURPOSES.
H. MR. TRI RECALLED HAVING HEARD ABOUT, SEEN, OR SPOKEN WITH EACH OF THE FOLLOWING U.S. POWS, IN ADDITION TO THE POWS NAMED IN PARA 3B AND 30, ABOVE:
(1) CAPTAIN (SIC) SCHUMANN (CASE 0099). MR. TRI RECALLED ((MAJOR)) SCHUMANN DIED IN CAPTIVITY. MR. TRI CITED THIS CASE TO ILLUSTRATE HIS BELIEF IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND GRAVE SITES OF THE MEN WHO DIED WHILE IN THE HQ SVNLA U.S. POW CAMP. MR. TRI NOTED THAT UNIT TB-20, THE UNIT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CAMP, MOVED THE CAMP FREQUENTLY. HE NOTED MOST OF THE ROUTES TRAVELED BY THE UNIT WERE NRROW FOOT OR BICYCLE PATHS CUT THROUGH THE JUNGL. HE RECALLED THE UNIT SELOM USED THESE PATHS LONGER THAN THREE MONTHS, AFTER WHICH THEY QUICKLY REVERTED BACK TO JUNGLE GROWTH. MR. TRI STATED FIRMLY HE BELIEVES IT WOULD BE BT #5368
NNNN
RCV11495 05:26 OS/13193 VZCZCBT0551 AR RUEHBT DE RUHQSGG #5369 2211 842 ZNR UUUUU R 091842Z AUG 93 ZYB FM CDR JTF-FA HONOLULU HI//J2// TO RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC//USDP:RSA/DPMO-RA/DPMO-RD// INFO RHEHNSC/WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASH DC RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHINGTON DC//CA/OCS/CCS/fAP/VLC// RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC//OCJCS/J5/PW-MIA/J3-JOD// RUHQHQB/USCINCPAC HONOLULU HI//J3/J30-N// RUEKJCS/USCINCPAC LO WASHINGTON DC RUEAIIA/CIA WASHINGTON DC//DEA/SEA/IB/DDO/EA/ICOG// RUHVAAA/CDRUSACILHI HICKAM AFB HI//TAPC-PED-H// RUEHBT/USDAO BANGKOK TH//PW-MIA// RUEHBT/CJTFFA DET ONE BANGKOK TH BT
UNCLAS //N03460// FINAL SECTION OF 03 AMPN/SUBJ/INTERVIEW OF REQUESTED SOURCE, MR. NGUYEN HUNG TRI//
VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO RELOCATE THE PATHS AND CAMP SITES WHERE POWS DIED AND WERE BURIED.
(2) USMC CAPTAIN COOK (CASE 0050). MR. TRI RECALLED CAPTAIN COOK WAS CAPTURED IN BINH GIA AND THAT NE DIED IN
PAGE 02 RUHQSGG5369 UNCLAS CAPTIVITY. ((FIELD COMMENT: ACCORDING TO REPORT 55 SUMMARY, RETURNED POW DOUGLAS RAMSEY--WHO SPOKE VIETNAMESE FLUENTLY- REPORTED THAT NGUYEN HUNG TRI TOLD HIM CAPTAIN COOK HAD DIED OF MALARIA IN DECEMBER 1967 WHILE CAPTAIN COOK WAS BEING TRANSFERRED BETWEEN CAMP SITES IN TAY NINH PROVINCE, SOUTHERN VIETNAM. SEE 3DI, ABOVE, FOR MR. TRIPS VIEWS ABOUT THE PROSPECTS FOR RECOVERING REMAINS.))
(3) CRAFTS (CASE 0049). MR. TRI RECALLED CRAFTS WAS CAPTURED IN BINH GIA AND RELEASED EARLY.
(4) 1ST LIEUTENANT (SIC) JOHN DUNN (CASE 1093). MR. TRI RECALLED (( CAPTAIN)) DUNN WAS RELEASED.
(5) CAPTAIN YOUNG (CASE 1620). MR. TRI MENTIONED HE HAD INTERVIEWED CAPTAIN YOUNG, BUT DID NOT COMMENT ON CAPTAIN YOUNG'S FATE ((SEE 3DI, ABOVE, FOR MR. TRIPS VIEWS ABOUT THE PROSPECTS FOR RECOVERING REMAINS.))
(6) CIVILIAN DOUGLAS RAMSEY (CASE 0234). MR. TRI RECALLED RAMSEY WAS RELEASED IN 1973 AND THAT RAMSEY WAS A NATIVE OF NEVADA.
(7) WARRANT OFFICER HESTAND (CASE 1727). MR. TRI RECALLED WO HESTAND WAS A HELICOPTER PILOT AND THAT HE WAS
PAGE 03 RUHQSGG5369 UNCLAS
RELEASED.
(8) CAMACHO (CASE 0024). MR. TRI RECALLED WITHOUT HESITATION THAT ((SFC)) CAMACHO ESCAPED FROM THE HQ SVNLA U.S. POW CAMP A FEW MONTHS BEFORE MR. TRI ARRIVED AT THE CAMP.
(9) MURPHY (CASE 1410). MR. TRI RECALLED THAT ((SP5)) MURPHY WAS ONE OF THREE MEMBERS or A U.S. COMMANDO ( ( BIET KICH MY)) TEAM WHO WERE KILLED WHEN THEY WERE AMBUSHED BY PAVN FORCES SHORTLY AFTER HELICOPTERS SHORTLY AFTER HELICOPTERS INSERTED THE COMMANDO TEAM INTO A LANDING ZONE NEAR THE VIETNAM-CAMBODIA BORDER. MR. TRI RECALLED THAT ALTHOUGH PAVN FORCES WERE ABLE TO RECOVER ((SP5)) MURPHY'S IDENTIFICATION CARD; U.S. AIRCRFT ATTACKS DESTROYED ALL THREE BODIES THAT THE CMMANDO TEAM LEFT BEHIND WHEN ITWITHDREW. MR. TRI SAID HE BELIEVED IT WAS COMMON FOR U.S. AIR STRIKES TO DESTROY REMAINS LEFT ON THE BATTLE FIELD. HE CITED THIS INCIDENT AS ANOTHER ((SEE 3DI, ABOVE)) ILLUSTRATION THAT IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO RECOVER REMAINS OF MANY UNACCOUNTED-FOR AMERICANS.
(10) MCKINLEY NOLAN (CASE 9950). MR. TRI RECALLED THAT MCKINLEY NOLAN HAD CROSSED OVER TO THE SVNLA. MR. TRI SAID NOLAN WAS NOT A POW. MR. TRI SAID HE DID NOT HAVE DIRECT KNOWLEDGE OF
PAGE 04 RUHQSGG5369 UNCLAS
NOLAN'S FATE; HOWEVER, HR. TRI HEARD THAT NOLAN STAYED IN CAMBODIA WHEN PAVN AND SVNLA MOVED BACK INTO SOUTHERN VIETNAM AFTER THE PARIS PEACE ACCORDS WERE SIGNED IN EARLY 1973. MR. TRI EXPLAINED THAT NOLAN'S WIFE WAS AN ETHNIC CAMBODIAN NAMED THAACH THI DEN (( THACHJ THIJ ZEEN)). HR. TRI SPECULATED THAT NOLAN'S WIFE MIGHT HAVE INFLUENCED NOLAN'S DECISION TO STAY IN CAMBODIA.
(11) DAWSON (CASE 0043). HR. TRI RECALLED THAT A BROTHER OF AN MIA PILOT VISITED A TEMPORARY POW CAMP NORTH OF SAIGON. MR. TRI RECALLED THE BROTHER WAS ACCOMPANIED BY A YOUNG WOMAN WHO ACTED AS HIS INTERPRETER (( FIELD COMMENT: A YOUNG EURASION WOMAN NAMED COLLETTE EMBERGER HR. TRI SAID HE LEARNED ABOUT THIS INCIDENT WHEN HE VISITED THE CAMP SOMETIME AFTER THE EVENTS IN QUESTION. DET 2 RESEARCHER/HISTORIAN NOTED THE NATIONAL LIBERATION FRONT (NLF) GAVE THE BROTHER ((DONALD DAWSON)) AN ITEM OF PERSONAL FLIGHT EQUIPMENT THEY SAID BELONGED TO 1ST LT DANIEL DAWSON AND PROMISED THE THE NLF WOULD RETURN 1ST LT DAWSON'S REMAINS AFTER THE WAR. IN RESPONSE, HR. TRI SAID HE BELIEVES IT IS UNLIKELY THE ITEM BELONGED TO 1ST LT DAWSON OR THAT ANYONE IN THE NLF HAD ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE LOCATION OF 1ST LT DAWSON'S GRAVE SITE.
PAGE 05 RUHQSGG5369 UNCLAS
4, REPORT PREPARED BY HR. R. DESTATTE, DET 2 RESEARCNER/HISTORIAN, AND REVIEWED BY SSGT WILLIAM H. NEWELL, DET 2 ANALYST. //
BT #5369
------------------------ Insider.....
31. Schumann, John
B101, D068, H099, R600, & S127 all reported on Schumann. In Tay Ninh Sgt. Womack, Sgt. Smith, George E. were released on 2/7/67 and should have further knowledge of his death according to H099. (Early relesees debriefings were not in the EGRESS RECAP report.) R600 reported that he was working on a rice mill, doing heavy manual labor, 40 pushups a day, chopping wood and developed congested lungs.
NOTE: Schumann is a clear case where the VC used captured Americans for slave labor.
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Smith, George E. P.O.W. Two Years With the Viet Cong. Berkeley, CA: Ramparts Press, 1971. Intro., and epilogue by Donald Duncan, notes, photos, map endpapers. Army NCO's sympathetic portrayal of his VC captors. Smith was captured at Hiep Hoa in 1963 and held for two years, before being released in Phnom Penh. Book also mentions POWs ARthur Krause, Kenneth Roraback, Harold C. Bennett, Isaac Camacho, Humbert Versace, John Schumann, Cook, Crafts, and Claude McClure. Also covers U.S. POWs meeting with Wilfred Burchett and Cuban journalists Marta Rojas and Raul Valdes Vivo.
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1. On January 27, 1973 Hanoi produced a list of 55 names of POWs, that Hanoi said died-in-captivity. Of these 55 names only 25 who died in Hanoi's hands were returned, now 20 years later. Therefore, it is very clear that Hanoi holds 30 dead GI's remains, they told the U.S., they had in 1973.
------VIETNAM's list 55 who Died in Captivity 1/27/73----- DIC DIC 1. Arroyo Baez R 3/85* 29. Earl Weatherman 4/68 2. Harold Bennett 7/66 30. Joe Zawtocki 12/69 3. Francis Cannon 9/68 31. Samuel Adams 12/65 4. Joe DeLong 11/67 32. Edwin Atterbury R 3/74 5. William Eisenbraun 9/67 33. Edward Burdett R 3/74 6. Walter Ferguson 6/70 34. Earl Cobeil R 3/74 7. Billy Knight 12/66 35. William Diehl R 3/74 8. Joe Parks 1/67 36. Ward Dodge R 3/74 9. William Port 11/68 37. Charles Dusing 7/74 10. James Ray 11/69 38. Wilmer Grubb R 3/74 11. Ken Roraback 7/66 39. Keith Heggen R 3/74 12. James Salley 7/71 40. Thomas Moore 12/65 13. John Schumann 7/66 41. Ben Newsom R 3/74 14. Earl Shark 9/68 42. Gene Pemberton R 3/74 15. William Smith 6/70 43. Norman Schmidt R 3/74 16. James Souitier NOL 44. Lance Sijan R 3/74 17. Leonard Tadios 3/66 45. Ronald Storz R 3/74 18. Michael Varnado R 8/89* 46. Robert Weskamp R 3/74 19. Humbert Versace 7/66 47. John Abbott R 3/74 20. Grier Walker 5/67 48. Ken Cameron R 3/74 21. Richard William 9/68 49. Terry Dennison R 3/74 22. Robert Young 5/70 50. James Griffin R 3/74 23. Frederick Burns 1/69 51. Richard Hartman R 3/74 24. Donald Cook 2/80 52. Homer Smith R 3/74 25. John Federick R 3/74 53. Ernest Stamm R 3/74 26. Edwin Grissett 12/69 54. Jack Walters R 3/74 27. Dennis Hammond 3/70 55. James Connell R 3/74 28. Robert Sherman 11/68
NOTE: Hanoi still holds 30 American remains, as bargaining chips. (DIC is the died-in-captivity date and R is the date the remains were returned.) NOTE: That Hanoi Radio announced, with pride, during the Vietnam war, the in captivity execution of 3 of these individuals and one was reported to DIA (Defense Intelligence) as seen alive in Hanoi in 1978.
These are only 10 examples of the 100's of discrepancy cases, where captured Americans, who were in Hanoi's hands, who were not released or accounted for after the Vietnam war ended. The "believed to be still held alive" discrepancy case files are a "tiny fraction" of the information that President Clinton said WILL NOT be declassified.
-------------------------- Insider..........
In addition, returned POW debriefings WILL NOT be declassified. It is DIAs stated public assurance that all returned POWs debriefings have been reviewed and none contain the names of POWs, who were last seen alive, who did not return. You will never see the files where Larry Stark, a returnee, identified Larry Zich as left behind alive. Nor will you see where Wesley Rumble, a returnee, identified Daniel Singleton as left behind alive. Nor will you see where Douglas Ramsey, a returnee, reported seeing John Schumann, alive. Julius Long, a returnee, reported Fred Ransbottom as left behind alive but you will never see the debriefing. Returnee, Stephen Rudloff reported hearing the name Orland Pender, who is still missing, but classification will hide his debriefing. Both returnees Norris Charles and James Mulligan reported seeing a note passed in the prison with the name William Pierson, who is still MIA, but the privacy act will withhold this information from view. Ronald Paschall was pulled out of the aircraft alive by a crewmember, Jose Astorga, a returnee, but Paschall was not released. James Patterson was reported alive on the ground by returnee Kay Russell in his classified debriefing. Woodrow Parker was a POW at the Citadel who did not come home but he passed a message to returnee Norris Overly. James McCarthy is reported in the debriefings of returnees Jackson, Marshall, Hanton, and McDowell. George McCleary is reported in debriefings of Charles and McNish. There are many, many more. According to the Senate Select Committee, final report(see page 256), debriefings show that 51 servicemen, named by returnees, had not returned from Southeast Asia. For the purposes of this report, surfice it to say that DIAs stated public assurance, that no returnees know of "left behind" American POWs, is at best a half truth and at worst a fabricated & deliberate lie.
When Mr. Clinton spoke at THE WALL he did not address the issue of stated public assurances that are true only because the evidence that would prove them false is held secretly classified and that evidence WILL NOT be declassified.
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1. Captain John Schumann MIA 6/16/65 (CASE 0099). Mr. XXX cited this case to illustrate his belief it would be impossible to find grave sites of the men who died while in HQ SVNLA U.S. POW camp. Mr. XXX noted that unit TB-20, the unit responsible for the camp, moved the camp frequently.
[324.txt 12/29/92]
Bob Smith New Hampshire United States Senate Washington, D.C. 20510
U.S. POW/MIAs WHO MAY HAVE SURVIVED IN CAPTIVITY
Prepared by the Office of Senator Bob Smith Vice-Chairman, Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs
December 1, 1992
This listing contains the names of 324 STILL UNACCOUNTED FOR U.S. personnel from the Vietnam Conflict. Approximately 300 of these personnel were last known alive in captivity in Vietnam and Laos, last known alive, out of their aircraft before it crashed, or their names were passed to POWs who later returned. A handful of the cases involves incidents where the aircraft was later found on the ground with no signs of the crew. This listing is based on all-source U.S. intelligence and casualty reports, information provided by POWs who were returned, listsof POWs and/or last known alive personnel prepared by the Defense Intelligence Agency, and other information made available to the Vice-Chairman, Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. (The difference between 300 and 324 accounts for known incidents where one or more unidentified crew members were captured from a crew of more than one, or the aircraft was found with no trace of the crew.)
Based on the high number of MIAs at the end of the war who are still unaccounted for (currently 1,170 persons for whom the USG does not know their fate), it is probable that a significant percentage of the MIAs NOT on this 324 list actually survived their incident and could have been captured. Apparently, only the Vietnamese and Laotians would know thei fate, as the U.S. Governemnt does not. GIVEN THIS REALITY, THE LIST OF 324 NAMES WHICH FOLLOWS IS AT BEST CONSERVATIVE.
Moreover, it should be noted that this number is consistent with the overall numbers represented in the volume of detailed eyewitness and hearsay accounts of reported U.S. POWs in captivity following the war in Vietnam and Laos which have been the focus of investigation by Committee staff.
(Note: This is a working document expected to be revised and updated as selected MIA files, eyewitness and hearsay post-war POW reports, special intelligence, returnee debriefs, and other information continue to be analyzed by the Vice Chairman.)
Schumann. John R. USA POW last known alive working on a rice mill, heavy manual labor, chopping wood, 40 push-ups, developed congested lungs according to POW returnee Douglas Ramsey.
--------------------------- Senate Select Committee Report.
South Vietnam John R. Schumann (0099)
On June 16, 1965, Captain Schumann was serving as the advisor to the Cai Be District Chief, Dinh Tuong Province when he was seen captured by Viet Cong forces. In July 1965, elements of the South Vietnamese Army's 7th Infantry Division captured Viet Cong documents in Dinh Tuong Province which included a photograph of Captain Schumann in captivity. In December 1965, three American POWs released by the Viet Cong confirmed Captain Schumann was in captivity and was still alive. In October 1967, a photograph of Captain Schumann in captivity appeared in the Soviet "Red Army" newspaper in Moscow.
Based on information from American POWs released during Operation Homecoming at the town of Loc Ninh in South Vietnam, Captain Schumann was taken to Tay Ninh Province and held with other Americans. In 1966 he became very ill, suffering from pneumonia and with malfunctioning kidneys. He was with other American POWs when he died at 1330 hours early in July 1966. His body was removed and buried at an unknown location.
Captain Schumann was declared dead/body not recovered, in March 1967. He was listed by the Provisional Revolutionary Government as having died in captivity on July 6, 1966. His remains have not yet been recovered.
During October-November 1992, U.S. investigators with a joint U.S./Vietnamese team in Vietnam located and interviewed a former guard and interpreter at the People's Army of Vietnam B-2 Theater of Operations B-20 prison camp which had confined U.S. POWs. Both sources described Captain Schumann's death at prison camp B-20. The investigators determined the prison camp was leveled and converted into farm land after April 1975 with the result that any facility locations and burial sites can no longer be located.
---------------------- Died In Captivity Notes - USG
SCHUMANN JOHN ROBERT O4 COKATO MN 06/16/65 SVN PROBABLY DEAD USG DOD 660707