[231832Z.OH 05/04/96]

RCV10771     18:29 06/24/93
    
VZCZCBTO801
RR RUEHBT                       CJTF- 2 PW-MIA -2
DC RUHQSGG #5999 1741832
ZNR UUUUU
R 231832Z JUN 93 ZYB
FM CDR JTF-FA HONOLULU HI//J2//
TO RUEHBT/CJTFFA DET ONE BANGKOK TH
INFO RHEHNSC/WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASH DC
RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHINGTON DC//CA/OCS/CCS/EAP/VLCX/
RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC//OASD-ISA/PW-MIA//
RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC//OCJCS/J5/PW-HIA/J3-JOD//
RUEKJCS/USCINCPAC LO WASHINGTON DC
RUHQHQB/USCINCPAC HONOLULU HI//J3/J30-M//
RUEKJCS/DIA WASHINGTON DC//PW-NM//
RUEAIIA/CIA WASHING TON D C//DEA/SE A/IB/DDO/EA/I COG//
RUHVAAA/CDRUSACILHI HICKAM AFB NI//TAPC-PED-H//
RUEHBT/USDAO BANGKOK TH//PW-MIA//
BT
UNCLAS //N03460//
SECTION 01 OF 02
MSGID/SYS.RRM/CDR JTF-FA/J2//
AMPN/SUBJ: INTERVIEW OF REQUESTED SOURCE, MR. TO DIEU
REF/A/FAX/DET 2/16MAY93//
AMPN/SUBJ: LIST OF PERSONS FOR INTERVIEW-SENATOR KERRY, ENTRY

PAGE 02 RUHQSGG5999 UNCLAS
NUMBER 1 OF 83//

RMKS/I. BACKGROUND. ON 12 MAY 1993, A JOINT US/VIETNAM
INTERVIEW TEAM INTERVIEWED MR. TO DIEU, A FORMER CADRE OF THE
ENEMY PROSELYTING SECTION OF THE POLITICAL SECTION OF THE AREA
THAT IS NOW MILITARY REGION FIVE (MR5) THE TEAM MET AT THE
ANTE-BUILDING MEETING ROOM OF THE GOVERNMENT GUEST HOUSE, 2 LE
THACH STREET, HOAN KIEM DISTRICT, HANOI, TO INTERVIEW SELECTED
PERSONNEL, LISTED IN REFERENCE, WHO ARE BELIEVED TO BE POTENTIAL
SOURCES OF INFORMATION CONCERNING U.S. PERSONNEL MISSING IN
ACTION IN VIETNAM. THE U.S. CONTINGENT CONSISTED OF MR. KEITH
GARY FLANAGAN, DET 2 CASUALTY RESOLUTION SPECIALIST. THE
VIETNAMESE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT CONTINGENT CONSISTED OF LTC LE KY,
MINISTRY OF DEFENSE; AND HR. NGUYEN THANG LOI, MINISTRY OF
INTERIOR. ON 12 MAY 1993, LTC KY ESCORTED MR. TO DIEU TO THE
GOVERNMENT GUEST HOUSE. HR. DIEU SAID HE HAD NOT BEEN
INTERVIEWED BY JOINT TEAMS PREVIOUSLY.

2. SUMMARY. THE SOURCE PROVIDED EXTREMELY LIMITED INFORMATION
CONCERNING U.S. SERVICEMEN WHO BECAME UNACCOUNTED FOR IN VIETNAM,
THE SOURCE PROVIDED SIGNIFICANT PLAUSIBLE DETAILS OF HIS MILITARY
ASSIGNMENTS AND EXPERIENCE TO SUPPORT THE CONCLUSION THAT HE HAD

PAGE 03 RUhQSGG5999 UNCLAS

NO SIGNIFICANT INFORMATION TO CONTRIBUTE.

3. DETAILS.

A. MR. TO DIEU (TOOR ZIEEUJ), A RETIRED SENIOR COLONEL
CURRENTLY RESIDING IN THE NAM DONG COMMUNITY  DONG DA URBAN
DISTRICT, HANOI, CLAIMED TO HAVE PRACTICALLY NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE
U.S. MIA ISSUE. HE SAID HIS EXPERIENCES IN ENEMY PROSELYTING
WERE DEVOTED FIRST AGAINST THE FRENCH  THEN AGAINST THE REPUBLIC
OF VIETNAM (RVN), AND FINALLY, WHEN CALLED BACK TO ACTIVE DUTY,
AGAINST THE CHINESE. HE SAID THAT HE WAS 17 YEARS OF AGE IN 1946
WHEN NE WAS FIRST RECRUITED AT A COMBATANT AGAINST THE FRENCH.
HE WAS ASSIGNED TO REGIMENT 48, BATTALION 66. HR. DIEU SAID THAT
IN 1951 HE BECAME AN ENEMY PROSELYTING CADRE AT THE WORKING LEVEL
TARGETED AGAINST THE FRENCH COLONIAL FORCES. HE SAID THAT HE
SERVED IN THAT CAPACITY FROM 1951 UNTIL 1954, AT WHICH TINE HE
HAD BECOME A BATTALION-LEVEL CADRE. AFTER THE DEFEAT OF THE
FRENCH IN 1954, HR. DIEU SAID HE RETURNED TO A COMBAT UNIT. MR.
DIEU SAID THAT IN 1964 HE WAS SENT TO THE SOUTHERN BATTLEFIELD
REGION OF WHAT IS NOW MILITARY REGION FIVE. HE SAID HE WORKED AS A
SECRET DEEP COVER CADRE FOR ENEMY PROSELYTING IN THE ENEMY REAR,
TARGETED AGAINST THE ARMED FORCES OF THE REPUBLIC OF


PAGE 04 RUHQSGG5999 UNCLAS

VIETNAM, ACTUALLY LIVING AND WORKING IN  DA NANG CITY. MR. DIEU SAID
HE SERVED IN THAT CAPACITY, WITH HIS  ACTIVITIES TARGETED
AGAINST THE REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM, UNTIL HE  RETURNED TO A COMBAT
UNIT IN 1968. MR. DIEU SAID THAT IN 1979 HE WAS  RECALLED TO
DUTY AS DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE ENEMY PROSELYTING SECTION  FOR
THE ANTI-CHINA EFFORT. MR. DIEU SAID HE RETIRED IN 2991 WITH THE
RANK OF SENIOR COLONEL.

B. MR. FLANAGAN ASKED THE QUESTION: "SINCE THE RELEASE OF
U.S. PRISONERS IN 1973 HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY LIVE AMERICANS?"
MR. DIEU RESPONDED THAT TO HIS KNOWLEDGE, ONLY ROBERT GARWOOD
STAYED IN VIETNAM AFTER 1973, AND GARWOOD WAS NOT A PRISONER.

C. MR. FLANAGAN ASKED THE QUESTION  "SINCE THE RELEASE OF U.S.
PRISONERS IN 1973, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY 'STAY-BEHINDS'?" MR.
DIEU RESPONDED THAT TO HIS KNOWLEDGE, NO ONE OTHER THAN
GARWOOD REMAINED IN VIETNAM WHO MIGHT BE CONSIDERED A
STAY-BEHIND.

D. CONCERNING WARTIME REPORTING ON U.S. PRISONERS, MR. DIEU
SAID THAT HE WAS WELL REMOVED FROM  THE REPORTING PROCESS DUE TO
THE  NATURE OF HIS DUTIES DURING THE ANTI-U.S. PERIOD AND COULD NOT
ASSIST THE JOINT TEAM WITH ANY DETAILS.

PAGE 05 RUHQSGG5999 UNCLAS

E. MR. DIEU SAID THAT HE HAD CONTACT WITH ONLY ONE U.S.
SERVICEMAN DURING THE WAR, ROBERT GARWOOD. MR. DIEU SAID THAT
GARWOOD WAS NOT CAPTURED, BUT CROSSED OVER. MR. DIEU SAID THAT IT
HAD BEEN VERY DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO MEET GARWOOD, BUT THAT BECAUSE HE
WAS WORKING THE ANTI-RVN CAMPAIGN AND NOT THE ANTI-U.S. CAMPAIGN, HE
WANTED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT GARWOOD AND WHY HE CROSSED OVER. MR. DIEU

SAID THAT HE HAD TO REQUEST PERMISSION FROM HIS HIGHER AUTHORITIES
IN ORDER TO MEET WITH GARWOOD AND FINALLY RECEIVED IT. MR. DIEU SAID
THAT THE INTENT OF THIS MEETING WAS TO GET INFORMATION ON HOW TO GET
U.S. PERSONNEL TO CROSS OVER. IN RETROSPECT MR. DIEU SAID THAT AS A
DIRECT RESULT OF THE EXPERIENCE WITH GARWOOD, THE ISSUE CHANGED TO A
TWO-PRONGED MISSION: (1) HOW TO GET U.S. SERVICEMEN TO LAY DOWN
THEIR WEAPONS AND RETURN TO THE U.S. AND (2) HOW TO GET MEMBERS OF
THE ARMED FORCES OF THE REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM TO CROSS  OVER. FROM THE
VERY BEGINNING, MR. DIEU SAID THAT THEY LEARNED FROM GARWOOD THAT
HAVING U.S. SERVICEMEN CROSS OVER TO THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF
VIETNAM WAS INCOMPATIBLE WITH HE ENEMY PROSELYTING MISSION IN TERMS
OF RESULTS.

F. MR. DIEU DESCRIBED GARWOOD AS ROUGHLY THE SAME SIZE AND

PAGE 06 RUHQSSG5999 UNCLAS
BUILD AS MR. FLANAGAN (5 FEET 8 INCHES, 160 POUNDS)
AND SAID THAT THE VIETNAMESE GENERALLY CONSIDERED
GARWOOD TO BE HANDSOME. MR. DIEU DID NOT ACTUALLY RECALL THE AMERICAN
AS ROBERT GARWOOD, BUT REFERRED TO HIM AS "BUPPY,"  MR. DIEU'S
PRONUNCIATION OF BOBBY, OR "NAM," WHICH MR. DIEU REFERRED TO AS
GARWOOD'S  VIETNAMESE NAME. MR. DIEU RECALLED ONE QUOTE FROM
GARWOOD WHICH HE REMEMBERED VERBATIM: "I THANK PRESIDENT JOHNSON FOR
SENDING ME OVER HERE SO THAT I COULD MEET SUCH A BRAVE PEOPLE." MR.
DIEU SAID THAT HE REMEMBERED CLEARLY THAT GARWOOD SAID HE DID NOT
WANT TO RETURN TO THE U.S. MR. DIEU SAID THAT THE ONE THING THAT
STOOD OUT IN HIS MIND ABOUT GARWOOD WAS THE HUGE QUANTITIES OF FOOD
THAT GARWOOD WOULD CONSUME AT EACH MEAL. WHEN A VIETNAMESE WOULD EAT
ONLY ONE SMALL SERVING BOWL OF A DISH, GARWOOD WOULD EAT THREE FULL
SERVING DISHES. HE DESCRIBED GARWOOD AS VERY HEALTHY.

G. ON 12 MAY 1993, WITH NO ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS AT HAND FOR MR.
DIEU, THE MEMBERS OF THE JOINT TEAM AGREED TO DISCONTINUE THIS
INTERVIEW. BOTH THE US AND SRV MEMBERS CONFERRED ON ADDITIONAL
QUESTIONS WHICH SHOULD BE CONSIDERED BEFORE CONCLUDING THIS
INTERVIEW.

//

BT

#5999

RCV10772                  13:39 06/24/93

VZCZCBTO802
RR RUEHBT
DE RUHQSGG #6000 1741832
ZNR UUUUU
A 231832Z JUN 93 ZYB
FM  CDR JTF-FA HONOLULU HI//J2//
TO RUEHBT/CJTFFA DET ONE BANGKOK TH
INFO RHEHNSC/WHITE HOUSE  NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WASH DC
RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHINGTON OC//CA/OCS/CCS/EAP/VLC//
RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC//OASD-ISA/PW-MIA//
RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHINGTON DC//OCJCS/J5/PW-MIA/J3-JOD//
RUEKJCS/USCINCPAC LO WASHINCTON DC
RUHQHQB/USCINCPAC HONOLULU HI//J3/J30-M//
RUEKJCS/DIA WASHINGTON DC//PW-MIA//
RUEAIIA/CIA WASHINGTON DC//DEA/SEA/IB/DDO/EA/JCOC//
RUHVAAA/CDRUSACILHI HICKAM AFB HI//TAPC-PED-H//
RUEHBT/USDAO BANGKOK TH//PW-MIA//
BT
UNCLAS //NO3460//
FINAL SECTION OF  02
MSGID/SYS.RRM/CDR JTF-FA/J2//
RMKS/
4.  POTENTIAL LEADS OBTAINED DURING THE INTERVIEW.
A. MR. DIEU SAID THAT  THERE WERE MANY OTHERS WHO SHOULD KNOW

PAGE 02 RUHQSGG6000 UNCLAS
MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FATES OF U.S. SERVICEMEN THAN HE HIMSELF.  IN
PARTICULAR, HE RECALLED THAT A MR. NINH, WHO WAS DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF
THE QUANG NGAI PROVINCE PEOPLE'S COMMITTEE DURING THE WARM SHOULD
HAVE INFORMATION. MR. DIEU SAID THAT NINH ALSO USED THE ALIAS OF "HAI
NIHN" AND THAT MR. NINH MAY BE LIVING IN THE QUANG NGAI AREA.

B. MR. DIEU SAID THAT THE TIME HE MET GARWOOD, HIS IMMEDIATE SUPERIOR
WAS NGUYEN THAI (NGUYEENX THAIS), WHO LATER BECAME THE DEPUTY
DIRECTOR OF THE ENEMY PROSELYTING SECTION. THAI RETIRED AS A SENIOR
COLONEL AND CURRENTLY RESIDES IN HANOI. MR DIEU DOES NOT KNOW HOW OLD
THAI IS, ONLY THAT HE IS OLDER THAN DIEU.

5. MATERIAL EVIDENCE. THIS SOURCE BROUGHT NO RECORDS, NOTEBOOKS,
DIARIES, OR ANY MATERIAL EVIDENCE CONTEMPORARY TO THE WARTIME ERA
WHICH COULD BE ASSOCIATED WITH AND UNACCOUNTED FOR U.S. PERSONNEL.

6. RECOMMENDED  FUTURE ACTIONS.

A. RECOMMEND NO FURTHER JOINT INTERVIEW OF THIS SOURCE
UNLESS THE VIETNAMESE OR U.S. SIDES CAN PRODUCE SPECIFIC INFORMATION
OR FURNISH MORE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS OR LEADS.

PAGE 03  RUHQSGG6000  UNCLAS

B. REQUEST THE VNOSMP ALLOW THE U.S. ACCESS TO THIS SOURCE FOR
POTENTIAL FUTURE INTERVIEW IN THE EVENT THAT SIGNIFICANT SPECIFIC
QUESTIONS ARE DEEMED NECESSARY.

7. PERTINENT LOCATION OR DATA CHANGES. NONE.

8. COMMENTS.

A. AFTER THIS INTERVIEW, THE MEMBERS OF THE JOINT TEAM ASSESSES ALL
POTENTIAL ADDITIONAL LEADS PROVIDED BY THE SOURCE. THE CONSENSUS OF
TEAM MEMBERS WAS THAT CONTINUATION OF THIS INTERVIEW OR AN ATTEMPT TO
REINTERVIEW THIS SOURCE WOULD DEPEND  ON SIGNIFICANT QUESTIONS WHICH
SHOULD BE ASKED PERTAINING TO SPECIFIC INCIDENTS OR SPECIFIC
QUESTIONS WHICH MIGHT LEAD TO FINDING NEW WITNESSES OR DISCOVERING
CONTEMPORARY DOCUMENTATION WITH DETAILS ON SPECIFIC CASES.

B. THIS SOURCE CONTINUALLY REFERRED TO THE FEROCITY AND VIOLENCE OF
THE WAR. PARAPHRASING SOURCE, HIS FREQUENT AND NUMEROUS COMMENTS TO
THE U.S. CONTINGENT OF THE JOINT INTERVIEW TEAM TENDED TO BE
VARIATIONS OF " ... SINCE YOU WERE NOT THERE ON THE BATTLEFIELD, YOU
COULD NOT POSSIBLY COMPREHEND THE FEROCITY OF THE WARFARE, THE
CONSEQUENCES OF THE BOMBING ..."//

BT

#6000