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AMPN/SUBJ/INTERVIEW OF REQUESTED SOURCE, THAI KE TOAI//
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AMPN/SUBJ: LIST OF PERSONS FOR INTERVIEW-SENATOR KERRY, ENTRY
NUMBER 31 OF 83//
RMKS/1. BACKGROUND. ON 5 JULY 1993, A JOINT U.S./VIETNAM ORAL
HISTORY PROGRAM INTERVIEW TEAM INTERVIEWED MR. THAI KE TOAI, A 45
YEAR OLD HANOI RESIDENT. MR. TOAI IS CURRENTLY A WRITER AND
POET, FORMERLY A GUNNER ON AN ANTI-AIRCRAFT (AA) POSITION AND A
CONTRIBUTOR TO THE AIR AND AIR DEFENSE FORCE MEMOIRS, VOLUME III.
THE TEAM MET AT THE ANTE-BUILDING MEETING ROOM OF THE GOVERNMENT
GUEST HOUSE, 2 LE THACH STREET, HOAN KIEM DISTRICT, HANOI, TO
INTERVIEW MR. TOAI, LISTED IN REFERENCE AS A POTENTIAL SOURCE OF
INFORMATION CONCERNING U.S. PERSONNEL MISSING IN ACTION (MIA) IN
VIETNAM. THE U.S. CONTINGENT CONSISTED OF TSGT RONALD D. WARD,
JTF-FA ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM COORDINATOR; AND PO2 JOHN HARVEY,
JTF-FA ANALYST/LINGUIST. THE VIETNAMESE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT
CONTINGENT CONSISTED OF MR. TRINH QUOC KHANH, MINISTRY OF
INTERIOR. MR. TOAI HAD NOT BEEN INTERVIEWED BY A JOINT TEAM
BEFORE.

2. SUMMARY. THE SOURCE, MR. THAI KE TOAI, PROVIDED NO FIRST
HAND INFORMATION CONCERNING U.S. PERSONNEL MIA IN SOUTHEAST ASIA.
HE SUMMARIZED HIS PART IN WRITING THE AIR AND AIR DEFENSE FORCE

PAGE 03 RUHQSGG8508 UNCLAS
MEMOIRS, VOLUME III. MR. TOAI CLAIMED NO KNOWLEDGE OF U.S.
PERSONNEL, LIVING FREELY OR AGAINST THEIR WILL, IN VIETNAM SINCE

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1973.

3. DETAILS

A. AFTER FORMAL INTRODUCTIONS, MR. TRINH QUOC KHANH EXPLAINED THE
JOINT TEAM'S MISSION AND TSGT WARD BEGAN THE INTERVIEW WITH THE FOLLOWING
TWO KEY QUESTIONS:

(1) SINCE 1973, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN OR HAD KNOWLEDGE OF U.S. PRISONERS
OF WAR (PW) CAPTIVE IN VIETNAM? MR. TOAI SAID HE HAD NOT.

(2) SINCE 1973, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN OR HAD KNOWLEDGE OF AMERICAN
"STAY-BEHINDS" IN VIETNAM? MR. TOAI SAID HE HAD NOT.

B. AFTER ANSWERING THE FIRST TWO KEY QUESTIONS, MR. THAI KE TOAI (THAIS KEES
TOAIJ) EXPLAINED THAT HE JOINED THE MILITARY IN 1970 AS AN AA GUNNER,
PROTECTING THE "NINH BINH" TO "HAM RONG" RAILROAD LINE. HE SAID THAT HE
SPENT THE NEXT THREE YEARS IN THIS POSITION, AND CANNOT RECALL EVER HEARING
ABOUT OR SEEING ANY U.S. PW'S DURING THIS TIME, OTHER THAN WHAT HE READ IN
THE NEWSPAPER.

C. IN 1973, MR. TOAI BEGAN HIS RESEARCH WORK ON THE AIR AND

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AIR DEFENSE FORCE MEMOIRS, VOLUME III, WITH THE 266TH AIR DEFENSE
REGIMENT. MR. TOAI SAID HE RESEARCHED ONLY PREVIOUSLY PUBLISHED
MATERIAL, SUCH AS MAGAZINES AND NEWPAPER ARTICLES, SOME DATING
BACK TO 1966. HE SAID THAT HE RESEARCHED SEVERAL U.S. SHOOT
DOWNS FROM 1966 FOR INCLUSION IN THE BOOK. MR. TOAI CLAIMED
AIRCRAFT SHOOT DOWN RECORDS WERE KEPT BY PROVINCE AND DISTRICT
AUTHORITIES DURING THE WAR, NOT BY THE INDIVIDUAL AA UNITS. HE
SAID THAT IF THOSE TYPES OF RECORDS HAD BEEN KEPT BY THE
INDIVIDUAL-AA UNITS, THEY WOULD HAVE PROBABLY CONTAINED VERY
BASIC INFORMATION, SUCH AS THE TYPE OF AIRCRAFT AND WHERE IT WAS
SHOT DOWN, BUT THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFICULT TO OBTAIN BECAUSE
THE AIRCRAFT NORMALLY IMPACTED FAR FROM THE AA UNITS, AT SEA OR
IN LAOS. THE RECORDS, HE ADDED, IF KEPT BY THE UNITS WOULD
PROBABLY BE LOST BY NOW DUE TO CHANGES IN THE UNIT LOCATIONS AND
CHANGES OF COMMAND. HOWEVER, THE RECORDS KEPT AT THE PROVINCE
AND DISTRICT LEVEL ARE PROBABLY NOW IN MUSEUMS, HE SAID. HE SAID
HE INTERVIEWED BATTLE PARTICIPANTS FOR INFORMATION CONCERNING
VIETNAMESE BATTLE VICTORIES. MR. TOAI RECALLED USING ONLY
PREVIOUSLY PUBLISHED PHOTOGRAPHS IN THE BOOK. MR. TOAI RECALLED
WORKING WITH MR. KY, MR. NIEM, MR. HOI, MR. TICH, AND MR. SY (SEE

PAGE 05 RUHQSGG8508 UNCLAS PARA 7,
BELOW), WHILE RESEARCHING FOR THE BOOK.

D. WHEN ASKED IF HE HAD EVER SEEN PRISONER INTERROGATION REPORTS OR USED
THEM AS AN INFORMATION SOURCE, MR. TOAI SAID THAT HE HAD NEVER HEARD OF SUCH
REPORTS. HE ALSO EXPLAINED THAT AA UNITS HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH
PRISONERS AND THEY WERE NOT INTERESTED IN ASSOCIATING U.S. AIRCRAFT SHOOT
DOWNS WITH BATTLES IN WHICH A PARTICULAR AA UNIT HAD PARTICIPATED.

E. MR. TOAI SAID THAT HE REMEMBERED READING ABOUT THE PILOTS "MURPHY NYZON",
"CUSSLER", AND "GRAHAM BOYD", WHO WERE SHOT DOWN DURING 1966. HE
SPECIFICALLY RECALLED THAT GRAHAM BOYD WAS SHOT DOWN IN VINH PHU. IN
ADDITION, HE HAD READ OF THE LOSS OF AN

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"AC-130" DURING THE BATTLE OF HAM RONG. THIS AC-130, HE SAID
WAS DROPPING TORPEDOES IN ORDER TO DESTROY THE HAM RONG BRIDGE
(WG8493) IN MAY OF 1966. AFTER BEING HIT WITH AA FIRE, THE
AIRCRAFT CRASHED IN THE VICINITY OF THO XUAN (WH0457). MR. TOAI
EXPANDED BY SAYING THAT DURING THE BATTLE OF HAM RONG, THE UNITED
STATES USED A-6A AIRCRAFT TO ATTACK THE HAM RONG BRIDGE
F. CONCERNING OTHER SECOND HAND INFORMATION ON U.S. PW'S,
MR. TOAI RELATED THAT NGUYEN TRUNG HIEU WAS A COMBAT PHOTOGRAPHER
WHO TOOK PICTURES OF CAPTURED U.S. PILOTS. MR. TOAI SAID THAT HE

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HAD SEEN THE FILM "PILOTS IN PAJAMAS" (PHI COONG MAWCJ QUAANF AOS
NGUR), BUT COULD RECALL ONLY THAT IT WAS ABOUT U.S. PILOTS IN CAPTIVITY.

G. IN CONCLUSION, HR. TOAI SAID THAT IN 1975 HE CONCLUDED HIS WORK  ON THE
BOOK AND RETURNED TO COLLEGE. HE SAID HE IS CURRENTLY INVOLVED WITH
DEVELOPING A FILM ABOUT VIETNAMESE MIA'S IN QUANG TRI PROVINCE AND WILL
CONTACT VIETNAMESE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS SHOULD HE UNCOVER INFORMATION
CONCERNING U.S. MIA'S WHILE WORKING ON THE FILM. HE ALSO SAID THAT HE IS
BEGINNING WORK ON A FILM ABOUT U.S. MIA'S THROUGHOUT VIETNAM; HOWEVER THE
VIETNAMESE GOVERNMENT HAS NOT YET GIVEN HIM THE FUNDING NECESSARY FOR THE
PROJECT.

H. WITH NO FURTHER QUESTIONS FOR MR. TOAI, THE JOINT TEAM AGREED TO
CONCLUDE THE INTERVIEW.

4. CORRELATIONS TO EXISTING POW/MIA CASES.

A. MR. TOAI'S REFERENCE TO "MURPHY NYZON", PARA 3.E., ABOVE ((BASED ON THE
PHONETIC SIMILARITY OF "MURPHY NYZON" TO THE SUBJECT OF THIS CASE AND THE
GENERAL TIME FRAME.

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RMKS/

B. MR. TOAI'S REFERENCE TO "CUSSLER", PARA. 3.E., ABOVE

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PROBABLY CORRELATES TO CASE 0421-1-01, A RESOLVED CASE, BASED ON THE
PHONETIC SIMILARITY OF "CUSSLER" TO THE SUBJECT OF THIS CASE AND THE
GENERAL TIME FRAME.

C. THE REFERENCE TO "GRAHAM BOYD", PARA.3.E., ABOVE CORRELATES TO CASE
0310-1-01, A RESOLVED CASE, BASED ON THE EXACT PRONUNCIATION OF THE NAME OF
THE SUBJECT OF THIS CASE, THE LOCATION OF INCIDENT, AND GENERAL TIME FRAME.

D. THE AC-130 SHOOT DOWN MR. TOAI SPOKE OF, PARA.3.E., ABOVE PROBABLY
CORRELATES TO CASE 0350, AN UNRESOLVED CASE. ALTHOUGH THERE IS A DISCREPANCY
IN MR. TOAI'S STATEMENTS CONCERNING THE MODIFICATION DESIGNATOR OF THE C-130
INVOLVED AND THE SPECIFIC LOSS LOCATION, THE GENERAL LOSS LOCATION AND
MONTH/YEAR OF LOSS ARE CONSISTENT WITH THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF CASE 0350.

5. POTENTIAL LEADS. MR. TOAI PROVIDED THE FOLLOWING AS POTENTIAL SOURCES OF
FURTHER PW/MIA INFORMATION:

A. MR. NGUYEN TRUNG HIEU WAS, ACCORDING TO MR. TOAI, A COMBAT PHOTOGRAPHER
WHO PRIMARILY TOOK PICTURES OF CAPTURED U.S. PILOTS. MR. TOAI DOES NOT KNOW
THE WHEREABOUTS OF MR. HIEU.

B. THE FILM "PILOTS IN PAJAMAS" (PHI COONG MAWCJ QUAANF AOS NGUR),
CONCERNING U.S. PILOTS IN CAPTIVITY IN VIETNAM.

PAGE 03 RUHQSGG8509 UNCLAS
6. MATERIAL EVIDENCE: NONE. THIS SOURCE BROUGHT NO
RECORDS, NOTEBOOKS, DIARIES, OR ANY MATERIAL EVIDENCE ASSOCIATED WITH
UNACCOUNTED FOR U.S. PERSONNEL.

7.  COMMENTS.

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PAGE 2 UNCLASSIFIED T.O.R 03:46 7/17/93

A. THE MEMBERS OF THE JOINT TEAM CONFERRED ON THE QUESTIONS TO BE ASKED
DURING THIS INTERVIEW. TEAM MEMBERS AGREED THAT THE NEED FOR REINTERVIEW OF
THIS SUBJECT WOULD DEPEND ON WHETHER FURTHER QUESTIONS FOR MR. TOAI ARISE
DURING THE COURSE OF THE ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW TEAM'S FUTURE WORK.

B. MR. TRAN KY (TRAANF KYF), ALSO ENTRY NUMBER 31 FROM REFERENCE, WAS
INTERVIEWED ON JUNE 21, 1993 BY THE JOINT ORAL HISTORY TEAM.

C. MR. NGUYEN HONG NIEM (NGUYEENX HOONGF NIEMJ), ALSO ENTRY NUMBER 31 FROM
REFERENCE, WAS INTERVIEWED ON JUNE 19, 1993 BY THE JOINT ORAL HISTORY TEAM.

D. MR. TRAN DUY HOI (TRAANF ZUY HOWIJ), ALSO ENTRY NUMBER 31 FROM REFERENCE,
WAS INTERVIEWED ON JUNE 21, 1993 BY THE JOINT ORAL HISTORY TEAM.

E. MR. NGHIEM DINH TICH (NGHIEEM DINHF TICHS), ALSO ENTRY
NUMBER 31 FROM REFERENCE, WAS INTERVIEWED ON JUNE 28, 1993 BY THE

PAGE 04 RUHQSGG8509 UNCLAS

JOINT ORAL HISTORY TEAM.

F. MR. DINH KHOI SY (DINHF KHOOIR  SYX), ALSO ENTRY NUMBER 31 FROM
REFERENCE, WAS INTERVIEWED ON JUNE 28, 1993 BY THE JOINT ORAL HISTORY TEAM.

G. REQUEST THE VNOSMP MAKE MR. TOAI AVAILABLE FOR REINTERVIEW
IF NECESSARY.//

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